Getting Paid as a Creative: Pricing & Negotiation Tips

In this episode of The Student Guide, we speak with Sophie, 24-year-old founder of the Kollab Network, a creative careers hub supporting emerging creatives through workshops, job listings, and community. Sophie shares her vision for a creative economy where working-class and diverse creatives can pursue sustainable careers, and where diversity efforts move beyond short mentorship schemes into leadership, paid opportunities, and long-term support. She explains how kollab began in 2020 as an Instagram shout-out page during COVID, evolved into sharing entry-level roles and opportunities, and grew into a paid business built around connection. Sophie and the host discuss pivoting, the importance of impact over follower counts, and why smaller, consistent, intimate events can create more authentic community and real outcomes like collaborations and jobs.

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Transcript

I think community goes further than just a bunch of people being at your event. It's that community or you having a certain follower count. Like I think I've stopped looking at my follow account too much. I think in my head I'm like what's the impact though? And I think that's also why with pivoting I made the choice for example like if you follow Collab between like 202 um I did a lot of like quite big events like quite large scale events with like a lot of people. So hello everyone. Hope you're doing well. Hope you're looking after yourselves. Welcome to another episode of the student guide where we bring on amazing uh people doing amazing things uh so you can learn about amazing topics. Uh we are speedily making our way through season 9 uh which is wild to think. Uh we're slowly approaching that 100 mark but uh we've got another exciting episode today. As you know I do not like doing introductions. I think it's best for us to hear from these incredible speakers themselves. So instead I'm going to hand over to today's guest. Uh hello Sophie. Thank you for coming on to the show. Could we know a bit more about you and what you do? Hi everyone. Thank you so much for having me. My name is Sophia Reinde. My pronouns are she, her. I'm 24 years old and I'm the founder of the Collab Network. And we are creative careers hub dedicated to amplifying the voices of emerging creatives and supporting them with getting great opportunities through workshops, job listings, and more. Perfect. Um, this isn't this is like a random tip. I didn't know I thought you were older. Anyways, this we'll dive into. People are always surprised I'm 24, but I'm only 24. people always think you're like, "Oh, I thought you were like 27, 28, you know, cuz you're doing like a Well, we'll dive into all the incredible stuff that you're doing, but you're doing a lot." Um, we're going to start off actually with uh our 44 question segment, which is uh brought to you by Amanda from 44 Words, uh where she submits a question to for us to get to know our guests in a in a more creative way. Hey, nice. Um, now this one is a tough one cuz it's a two-parter. So what's your vision for the future of the creative economy is the first part and then what initiatives or changes would you like to see implemented and how do you envision contributing to that vision? So let's start off with what's your vision for the future of the creative community? That's a big question. I think my vision is for emerging creatives, especially those from particularly working-class backgrounds, to no longer feel as though the background they come from can stop them from actually pursuing a very fruitful career in the industry. Um, I think I find that for a lot of creatives, especially creatives who are workingass or creatives who are from other diverse backgrounds, for a lot of them actually building a creative career can seem like such a distant reality. For a lot of them, especially from young, you're maybe you're encouraged to pursue a very traditional career path like be a doctor, be a lawyer. And I understand that for a lot of our parents, maybe for them, it's about survival. [clears throat] Or it's about for them, they don't see the creative industry as fruitful enough. And I guess understandably so, if you look at the creative economy, for a lot of especially freelancers and soul traders, for a lot of us or for people who are doing that, like the industry can be quite be a lot of like fluctuations. there can be a lack of stability, a lack of like steady income. So, I think for a lot of people, they'd probably feel like pursuing their creative passion is something that they can't do or something that isn't lucrative enough for them. But I think I'm kind of existing here to change that. Um, I also think as well my my vision and my mission is for diversity in the creative industry to go beyond mentorship programs and to be more about us actually yeah, getting more black, more diverse, more queer creatives in spaces in leadership roles. get us into more get us around the table and get us a seat at the table because I think I think the mentorship programs are great. I'm not going to sit here and dismiss that. But I do recognize that for a lot of creatives I think a lot of the initiatives that exist can be for optics or for ticking a box and it's like beyond that what experience or support do you get? Are you able to be a manager or be a lead in this sector? Are you able to actually create a steady income for yourself or is it just about you being a part of a program for 12 weeks and that's it? M um I think I'm just mindful of the fact that yeah, like what goes beyond that? Cuz I'm not saying obviously I love a mentoring program. I've run a few myself in my own career, but I'm kind of like what's next after that for you. What actually is going to get you the seat at the table or get you part of like a more more like senior standpoint in the creative industry? Yeah. Um I'm going to ask you a second question, but before I do that, I definitely agree with you cuz we had uh I don't remember which podcast. Uh my apologies if the guest is watching this but there was a uh a podcast guest we were talking about essentially oh I remember it was uh Luchia um we were talking about essentially how in the creative industries there definitely seems like there's a lot of like the ah you know like we'll support you like you know entry level getting in there like super early um but then there isn't necessarily like a okay once you're in the door what's next or like how do you feel like empowered and supported to continue your creative journey afterwards and like you said like you know getting into senior management uh you know if you're getting in the if you're running a business like what do you need to be aware of operating in the creative industries um so yeah more spaces existing like that is really important uh and very quickly uh to just do a little plug um that's one of the reasons so uh we I may have mentioned in the last season that we were working on this like program that we wanted to do and the whole idea about it was we wanted it to be not only are you like learning but it's like the three months afterwards where you're technically alumni we're giving you like paid opportunities so it would be like okay cool so if you uh run an events company and you support I don't know like uh you address like loneliness for young people um or let's say you address loneliness in general um we find corporate sponsors who are like interested in our program and want to support like emerging businesses and it's like cool great so you want to host an event cool we'll connect you with this person to so you can then like work together and then you can build your creative career so we'll take a commission rate but then the creative getting paid they're using the lessons that have been taught to actually like get money uh and then we just basically open the door for them. So it's less of like oh cool we've given you the tools like figure out the creative industry for yourself but it's like actually no like let's figure out how you can actually like you might need help to just get that initial booking but then great once you've got your first booking then it's just building your portfolio and whether that's with the same organization or a different one um yeah we just help people to do that. I think that's really important and I think that's such a great thing that you're doing because I do think that even if you can't give a creative a paid opportunity after I kind of like that's the ideal really but I think if you can still kind of give them that long-term support afterwards they can feel a lot less discarded% I think some programs a lot of creatives I know have spoken to me about how they'll do a program get that nice picture but then afterwards where's the support or afterwards like what is the followup are you able to access their spaces as a company can you offer mentorship once a or once a month. Can you like what can you do? There's more you can do as a company. You have the resource just about actually having that care and that drive to support. So% definitely I agree. Yeah. Um which I guess if you feel like you've answered this, let me know and we can uh jump into the first official question. But second part about what initiatives or changes would you like to see implemented and how do you see this contributing to the vision of like you said like not just like the mentoring but also that long-term support. Um yeah. How do you envision these initiatives or changes you want to see implemented contributing towards that? I mean, I think it is a tough one because I think it's easy to say create more programs or get give creatives more funding, but I understand that that's not how the industry works. It's not as binary or as simplistic as that. However, I do think definitely there being more investment in the creative industry is a huge step forward. I think definitely the long-term support is a huge thing. I think are you asking me what I do to contribute to that? This the changes or initiatives can be either yourself, it can be others, it can be industrywide. I mean collab we've been trying to really kind of ensure that we actually create quite a like um wholesome community that actually does stay in touch with each other and does kind of keep that support going. So we launched our accountability program which obviously is marketed at six weeks but obviously beyond that we still support the people that are part of the program long term and kind of again foster that community wherever you're hosting like share it with us we'll share it along we'll still kind of stay checking in with you making sure that you're doing well and anytime I see any opportunities that could be fitting for you I'll either put your name forward or I'll share it along with you so kind of fostering that sense of community. Um, so yeah, I think running that has been really good and it's been really quite like helpful for me to kind of remember that, yeah, you know what, I think long-term support is so important. I think not just it being the six week, but what goes beyond that? What's the followup? So, I definitely think that is really supporting us in ensuring that programs don't feel tokenistic and actually feel like impactful. No, I definitely agree. Um because I think that is incredible because actually, you know, if they're linking to your name, um literally matches with your name, you're creating collaboration and building long-term growth. Um yeah, we're going to get started with the first official question. Uh you know, and this is essentially the why. Mhm. So, you know, you mentioned that you've built the Collab network to help young creatives um break into the industry through programs, networking, job opportunities, mentorship. What was the moment that you realized that the gap was bigger than just finding a job and how did you turn that insight into action? Good question. Um, I think a lot of it probably came from like personal experience. So, back in 2020 when I started, I actually wanted to be a writer. Okay. So, I wanted to be a writer and I remember like trying to actively search opportunities. cuz obviously that was a time literally right before co. So, I remember like looking at like jobs pages for writers and I remember looking at a lot of these roles and seeing, oh, they need somebody who's mid-level or maybe to senior level or in terms of like a lot of the writing programs, they were not available or a lot of them had disclosed applications. I was quite limited in number. So, I think to myself, oh gosh, like I want to be a writer. I want to kind of get myself out there. But it seems like opportunities are pretty scarce. And I also found that as well in terms of diversity when I was connecting with other writers a lot of the time they don't really look like me. There was a lack of like similarity or connection. And that's not to say that you can't connect to people that don't look like you, but I think there is something powerful in having people that mirror your experiences. Um both in like an identity sense but also in like a professional sense. So I think I was kind of like, oh okay, I need more diversity. I have been I have met a lot of creative people who all share the same sentiment. So, what can I actually do to change that? Um, so I started it off and it literally became like a bit of a shout out page. I was just shouting, if you scroll all the way down to the bottom, you I know we've got like nearly 400 posts, but if you go down to the bottom on Instagram, Yeah. it was a shout out page. Oh, nice. Shouting out my friends, shouting out people that I knew, shouting out people that were doing really cool things. And it just became a really authentic community. And people would then start messaging me saying, "Oh, can I be shared on here? Here's my work." Like, and it grew really quickly. like we literally gained like quite a few followers very soon after we started. Um and then of course COVID happened so my idea to do events was kind of put on pause but I was like okay how can I still kind of foster community so I started doing Instagram lives that was the time of Instagram lives everyone was doing Instagram lives and I remember think okay like so how can I continue making this more of a community and then of course people then instead of like them sharing their profiles with me to be shared they started sharing their like job roles so people were kind of looking for like virtual assistants or like virtual writers or people were still very much trying to foster connection online. So from there I just started kind of sharing more like jobs, sharing like opportunities like very much for free. So I was like okay let's see how this goes. And then from there it just built like again people were very interested. I was like wow okay. So again people especially looking for like entry level roles that's a very quite like um a lot of people kind of were saying that yeah a lot of the pages I do follow they require a lot of experience. Of course, if you're a student, you're just starting out, you haven't got that experience yet. So, from there, literally, it just kind of took off really. Then I kind of found like my niche and I realized that, you know what, there's actually a need for this and I actually can get paid for this as well. Cuz again, I think realizing that I could be paid to do this was quite a surprise to me. I was like, wow, I can actually be paid to share things and share listings and connect businesses with their potential talent. So, again, it kind of just went from there. And I think yeah, it all really started just from like my own sort of experience of needing a space, needing a community, needing an experience. And from there, it just kind of grew quite organically as well. I really love that. I think there there's many a thing to unpack there, but I think the one of the things I love is like you mentioned um how the how your like business like changed cuz I think everyone kind of thinks that like whatever you're doing is what you're sticking to. So whatever you started with, you have to follow through until the end. And I like that you shared there that, you know, that wasn't necessarily the case with you. It's definitely not the case with myself. Um, it's not the case with, to be fair, any business. Um, but I like that, like you mentioned that it's okay to like pivot and change into what you want. It's okay to And I think also I think being able to be adaptable is actually a really key skill because I I understand that people have this idea around like if you've got an idea, stick to it. Be dedicated. Yes. However, I think if you recognize that a certain area is not working, I think there's no harm in switching up and kind of like adopting new ideas. And I think for me, I saw it as research. I'm like, okay, if it doesn't work out, then I've researched it, tried it, it didn't work. What what insight can I get can I gain from that to make my business better? So, I think you have to see it as research and see as you're just learning insights about what works. And of course, I think where where the creative industry is constantly changing, I feel like there's going to be constant flux all the time. I think you have to be adaptable in this industry. You have to be willing to change. So, 100%. And I think like you mentioned with the creative industries, um like it's not an easy industry to to get into. We I literally had this conversation with my manager about um especially uh for underrepresented people. um it just gets worse and like you said the higher you go uh so more like senior management um the less you see the less yeah 100% the less so I love that you know through the work that you're doing you're also showcasing to people that like hey like you're not alone you're creating this or like you said I think uh community uh was um on an accelerator program we were talking about like we're doing a pitch and person who's leading it was just like oh like he's he's not saying he has an issue with the word community but he says sometimes community can sometimes feel like a buzz word like everyone's just like Oh, cool. I'm slapping community onto everything that I'm doing. But he was just like, "No, like um community and in your case, you know, an authentic community is something that is really key." Um and he was saying like people just need to really understand that like just because you've got there's a difference between like a community you've built and customers cuz your customers may not be your community. Your customers are people that may be like, "Cool, I'm going to buy into whatever you're like, I'll buy whatever you're selling, but I don't necessarily need to like be a follower. I don't need to, you know, turn up to your events, you know, just like your post. I'm just there to just like sign up and enjoy my journey. Um, but your community, [clears throat] like you said, especially an authentic community, are the ones that will like show show up to your events. They're the ones that will engage with your platform. They'll join your, you know, newsletter and submit stuff. And I love that with your journey, you've been able to showcase like you've been able to build not only a community, but one that's actually authentic and engaged in what you do. Thank you. I agree. And I think it's something that I thought about as well cuz I'm like, okay, I think community goes further than just a bunch of people being at your event. Is that community or you having a certain follower count? Like I think I've stopped looking at my follow account too much. I think in my head I'm like, what's the impact though? And I think that's also why with pivoting I made the choice for example like if you follow collab between like 20 4 um I did a lot of like quite big events like quite large scale events with like a lot of people and I realized like what's the impact of that though people aren't really talk people are talking and connecting but there's not really a shared sense of like why you're all here sort of thing like% I think the big events were great because they got us money we were more visible But then I had to kind of scale it back and pivot. And I decided to kind of like actually foster more intimate spaces. And from there that was real community. I had the same people showing up every month. I was more consistent. I was able to save more money because big events were expensive. And also I was able to actually kind of like build a community of regular people who are coming to our events every month. Whether it was like a a social or a debate night or a networking evening or a headshot evening like I had the same people showing up showing up and that was real community. People actually made friends. So yeah. No, 100%. And I think even that is like again that's beautiful because I think a lot of people feel like like you said like you need to have the big following you need to have like if you're doing an event if you don't have a high number of people like your Exactly. But I think like even like in our case so we do a perfect example is we do a women's history month and a black history month event every March and October throughout the whole year. Uh, and that literally just came about from just a conversation at my uni and I was just like, "Cool, I want to put on an event." This is the first pick up a mic event we'd ever done. And I, like you said, I was just like, "Oh, cool. We need to like get loads of numbers, get loads of people in the room." And every time we do it, I'm always like that. But then it's interesting cuz I see like we like when we do the events sometimes, yes, we do get like the maximum capacity, which is great. Sometimes we'll get like maybe a bit smaller than that. And it's great cuz I've always said whether you're doing an event for like 20 people, 10 people, 100 people, thousand, this ultimate experience should be the same. And it should be like I'm going and I'm making this event as great as it can be. And we've seen like through the these events we've had great like you said about impact, great impact. So um whether it's like the connections made um you know from our women's history month event I want to say in 2020 it must have been 2024 we saw someone uh get employed from that so she connected with one of the panelists the panelist yeah she panelist I was just what you said I was like oh my god [laughter] so the panelist was just like oh let's keep in touch I love what you're doing then she was just like oh I've actually got a job that's coming up with my company uh I would I think you should apply and then she got employed and I didn't even know this I literally just met the panelist like month later and she was like Yeah, you know that event you did like thanks for that because I ended up employing someone. I was like that's really great. Um even with the women's like with our Black History Month event, um you know, we've seen people collaborate outside of just like us basically doing the event. So for me, I love that cuz I'm just like I love being a facilitator. A lot of people know me. I'm I'm probably introducing one person to someone at least if not every day. That's like just like 20 minutes. [laughter] And I think sorry no cuz I think I want to touch on a point that you said around like um like when you talked about whether it's a small number of people or a lot of people the impact should be the same. I think that is such a beautiful way to put it because I [snorts] remember the first event I ever hosted [clears throat] was like a careers headshot speed mentoring sort of workshop and I remember I put out tickets and 30 people signed up to the event and only like nine came on the day and on the day I remember being so embarrassed I was like oh my god nine people came two of them are my best friends so I was just like damn like that's really embarrassing then I was like but is it Because everybody who came to the event left with something. Everybody who came to the event got head shot a able to network. One person even gained a mentor. Like another person used that picture headshot that he got for like his promotion for his album like what EP the difference. But um like I was like do you know what the concept of um impact is really important. I think I could look at that and think okay if 30 people came that was successful but if nobody gained anything then is that really success? But I think in that space where I had like nine 10 people, it was no more than 11. It was a very small number. But everybody left with something like I think it was really important. I think also for me I had to remember that that was my first ever event. The the reality is there's so much that you learn from these things because at [snorts] the time I obviously have grown so much in terms of understanding like structure and how to structure an event, how to lay it out. I know if I had all 30 people come, I would not have been able to necessarily manage that because I was still very new to things and how I laid it out, it was quite chaotic. However, the ones we've done after that, I've had 40, 50 people come to my event, 60 people come to my events. But I've gained the experience to know how to run events now. So, I think sometimes also about knowing what you can manage and working with a small number. And now that I can work with a small number, you work with even bigger number and more and more and more. But I think focusing on numbers, you kind of don't see that growth. So 100% there are two things that I just realized from what you said first which I didn't actually clock. So I was just like you're 24 now so that means you must have started when you were if you were 18. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. 18. Yeah. I was I was that's the thing because like when I was doing these events at the very beginning who [laughter] not not who I think I was but it's like the experience I know now is so different. Like I know so much of events now. I feel like I'm quite good with events now. Well, besides I can manage, but it's like again it's about you know everything. Take your time to learn. And I think in the creative industry I think deep down all of us want to be like in a microwave what means to be quick. You want the quick results, the fast following this that but I had to learn how to master the art of running a good event. That wasn't something that I learned overnight. It took years for me to know that. So I think you have to really kind of like be patient with that process and understand it's going to take a while. So definitely and I think like you said there that there is an art like once you have mastered like smaller gatherings like it it's literally just replicating the same thing over and over but just with bigger people. Um cuz I know there was uh there's uh he his name is Top. He runs an organization called the sitdown but like he was saying oh yes I've seen that. Yeah. Yeah. So he was saying like with his so with his event he was he did a talk and was talking about like how he um like gets like partnerships and all this stuff and he was just like oh like no matter what I'm doing I ensure that like the curated space is great. So if I'm doing an event and it's got 100 people or if I'm doing an event and you know it's got like a thousand people or 50 people or whatever. He's just like I always make sure that that space is both like sacred but also like it's worthwhile for whoever's coming cuz he's just like I don't know like what this person's given up to be at my event. they may have missed out on like going out with friends. They may be like, I'm trying to build a connection, meet new people, find a mentor. Um, and he was just like, you need to ensure that your spaces are meeting the the needs of your people. And it's just like really clear what the like why like people may say it sounds kind of harsh, but ultimately it's like, why would I go to your event over like someone else's event? Um, especially like let's be honest, if it's a Friday night, like someone will be like I could be either at home, I could be going out with friends, um, I could be doing something else. So, it's just like why would I go to your event and really understanding that and like what's the the benefit like you were saying before about like going and the impact? What's the value? Exactly. 100%. Um, we're going to go on to the next question. That was quite a longwinded I loved it. I loved it. Um, so this is about going from opportunities to outcomes. So, as you've mentioned, you've built a real community with Collab. You know, you've got thousands in the network, hundreds of opportunities being accessed. What have you found to be the most effective way you've helped entrylevel creatives move from just being talent uh sorry move from just being talented to being paid? That's a good question. Um I think I would always say um not trying to this not ignoring no mastering the essentials. Okay? Because I think there are a lot of creatives who are really talented but I think a lot of creatives don't know the essentials. So, even something as simple as like I remember there was a photographer that I worked with a few years ago. He was really really great. He captured my event, but he didn't know what an invoice was and he was like, "Oh, like here's my bank details on Instagram DM. Boom. Here's the price." And I was like, "Thank you. Love the work, but I'm I'm registered by HMRC. I need an invoice. I can't just pay you without an invoice." And he was like, "I don't know what that is." And then I was like, first of all, like I appreciate you being so honest and saying you don't know what it is. How about I make you a template and like from there we can just talk through how to do it and then [clears throat] send me one. And from there he was like, "Thank you so much because like I don't know how well that was." And that is an essential thing you need to know. I think marketing the essentials is a great way to actually get be paid because I think for a lot of creatives understanding things like how to price yourself correctly, how to write a correct invoice and set clear payment terms, how to actually write and structure proper emails, how to actually structure and like create a LinkedIn that's going to attract more paid offs for you. Like a lot of creatives don't know these things. So I think actually making that very accessible through our workshops, our free resources, etc. people actually been like, do you know what through that I've been able to actually access this opportunity or get paid from this company or be able to kind of set a firm boundary and actually assert myself in X way. So I think definitely like having that was a really important thing for us. No, I think first of all I think you're right because I think uh there is a lot like with creatives especially the pricing itself. I think that's the one thing like creatives always struggle with. Um, and usually it stops being like a this is my like this is my price, this is like if you need me to do x and it's just like either what's your budget and I'll work with it or it's like oh cool like um you know just pay me what you can and with both of those um and like through this I was on an accelerator and through that the person was talking about it and she was like look like if the engineer who's going to come to your let's say you've got something wrong with your house you're going in to get an engineer to fix something the engineer is not going to rock up and be like, "What's what's your budget?" Yeah. Like your your your your I don't know, your electrics aren't working. I'm going to have to fix the fuse box. What's your budget that you're working with? He's like, "No, it's going to cost you this from the get- go. Can you afford it? Yes or no. Uh these are my hourly rates. This is everything." And she was just like, "The engineer is confident in their ability, in their pricing, and understands like, I'm charging you this much because I know my skill and my talent is this." What about a plumber electrician? They can set a boundary. they know what they're charging because they know they can deliver 100%. And they know that that's what they have to do. But with creatives, we're very like we're very much just sometimes like, oh, you know, like, oh, I can like find ways to like work around or like uh which I think for a lot of creatives starting off, they're just like, oh, I'll just do X, Y, and Zed for free, and that's perfectly fine. But I think like you said there like no knowing like okay how and I think uh this like a cash flow statement if you've never done it before is actually something that I only recently started doing through this program. But every okay cool so with whatever service you're doing how much does it how much does it cost to deliver this service? So think about if you're traveling anywhere like how much roughly do you spend on travel? Um, think about roughly like if you're paying for like an editing software and you're a videographer, how much does that software cost per month? Um, you know, your camera, how much does that camera cost? Uh, even if you're just like, oh, I'm not going to benchmark, like maybe it's an old camera, you might be like, I can't benchmark it um against current prices, but you could be like, okay, cool. If you were to buy this camera either firstand or secondhand, how much would it currently cost? If you're just like once you know all of that, that can then help you to determine because then you can be like, "Okay, well um I don't know, let's say I'm using Premiere Pro. Premier Pro pro costs this much a month." Um I can then be like, "Well, 1 hour of using Premiere Pro and like getting everything set up, importing the projects, all of this, downloading everything, it's going to cost me this much." Um for myself, I will say I currently do not have a price list, which is funny based on this conversation, but um Okay, it's okay. I made one very recently, honestly. like I've it's it's being a creative. Um but one of the things that I'm now going to be including with that is oh well whenever I share content I do it through Google Drive and I pay for like a two TB storage on Google Drive. So I'm like that should also be included because I'm going to be sharing the person the work through there. So it's not just like oh hey uh I'm pricing based off the video editing software, the camera, my time, all of this stuff. It's like no I'm actually including everything I need to deliver this service. It's important 100%. Because at the end of the day again like you said with the plumber, electrician, anyone who does like handywork, they know that they're including their travel of like petrol in your price. Everything is factored in. They factor in everything and they and they know they know that they need to be able to like pull this up. And that's why when you're you're slapped with like a high bill and you're like, why does it cost this much? They're always confident in their answer. They're just like, well, you know, you know, doing an initial survey cost this much and all of this and all of that. Um, but I think I think as well with the creative industry, there's two reasons why I think people struggle with this. I think a um, is fashioning red? Is that okay? Let me just record. Oh, yeah. I think a lot of creators is because a I think there's no sort of like regulated sort of like HR or sort of formal body that can like necessarily support you if you have disputes around pay and and also pricing yourself and knowing what's appropriate and what's not. Whereas like I guess a lot of Londoners, we go buy on the living wage or employee rights like you have something a bit more formal but I think for creatives that that's still in like the making I also think as well I think that the creative industry is quite undervalued in general I think a lot of people have a tendency to really undervalue creative work not realizing just how much it has to offer 100% and I think that can then mean that a lot of creatives subconsciously will undervalue our own work because we think oh well if it's not if you don't see it as a value then neither will I no 100% because um I had an intern who was like amazing at photography and like he was working with me over the summer and he was just like really great and I was just like oh cool like tell me a bit about like your future plans, what you want to do like it's been great working with you obviously you're going back to uni and he was just like oh yeah you know I want to think about like um you know I want to continue my photography and I was like okay cool like you've got a portfolio this is great um do you know your like pricing so like if someone's going to charge you and he was like ah no not really and I was just like okay you need to think about that and then so the first time he he did photography for me I was like cool like do photography can you do head shots he was like yeah I can I was like sick Uh, and he was like, "Oh." Uh, I was like, "Do you need anything to do the head to to do the head shots? Do you need like a backdrop? Do you need?" He's like, "No, I like I just literally have a light ring. Um, just give me a corner and as long as there's good lighting and I can have my light ring, it'll be good." Wow. Um, his head shot incredible. I have told him this. I have told everyone I Who is he? His name is Josh. Uh, if you've seen this, he's actually been on this podcast before. He was in one of the episodes, but yeah, Josh. Um, he was incredible with his head shot. And I was like, "Do you do you know how like under cuz I know someone who paid like £600 for a photographer um and he basically had to have like a backdrop and he was just like, "Oh, I need like more budget." And this guy, he was just Josh was just like, "Yeah, no, literally like my I've literally got my square light um and my camera and yeah, I can just like do it wherever." I was just like, "Do you know how like underutilized like like that how unique of a selling point that is?" And I was just like, "No, you need to like take that into account. You're you're that's an incredible skill to be able and his editing time is incred this guy turn around time I bet is amazing. Turn around time is amazing. Literally on the way home he's just like oh yeah I'm I'm putting it into Adobe Lightroom on my phone. I'm then going to just like quickly edit. Even that he could charge extra. One thing I've realized is people don't know. If you're approaching a new client, they're not going to know what you're you're charging person like you. Not that you should make it up on this, but I found with certain clients, like if you, let's say you've been charging £50 for your head shot and you've been like undercharging yourself and Apple comes and reaches out to you and says, "Hey, we've got a branded event. Come and work with us." They're not going to know you've been charging 50. You tell them you've been charging 1K. They're not going to know. And I think that's what you have to be tactical about having set prices, but also looking at who exactly you're charging and working out what their budget is. Because I think what's also a problem is a lot of these big brands are not trying to pay creatives enough. 100%. They're trying to cut corners, but it's like, "Sorry, you're a big brand. You've got the budget." I think you have to put your big boots on and ask them what is your budget or kind of like be unafraid to ask because the worst they can say is no. No. 100%. If you start high, you can go lower. Like don't like I started learning, okay, cool. Let's say my budget like my fee is a set price. Go a little bit higher. they might meet it or just they might have you might have to negotiate negotiate but I think when you develop a good habit of negotiating negotiating is a key skill that a lot of creatives need to have like negotiate no 100% and even like you were saying there like I know there was um a videographer friend of mine she was just like so what she does is she'll be like this is her fee [snorts] and then when people are just like whether this is too expensive or like it well it tends to be more the too expensive she's just like okay cool well within the if they propose raise the budget. If they're just like, I don't know, she's like, for a day shoot, it will cost like, I don't know, let's say 750 for me to be there for you for like 4 hours. They might be like, 750 is too much. We could probably go with like 500 or maybe like we can only afford 250. She's like, okay, cool. If you can only afford 250, then these are the three things I'm going to do. So, that might be like, I can make a 1 minute reel for you. I can do one interview for you. Um, but I'm only going to be at the event for like 2 hours and then I'm going to have to go because unfortunately you can't pay me the whole thing. Um, so even like she was saying like have even if you don't have a pricing like see what's out there that uh videographers are charging or photographer or whoever in your as a creative are charging and then like you said like maybe you'll ask people like oh maybe I'll try with this person asking for £50 extra or like £100 extra. And then once they then say whether they can or can't afford it, you can then be like well you know that's fine. What is your budget? if you can afford this much, I'm more than happy to agree to these terms and I can do these items for you. Um, and like I've done that before. I was just like to someone, yeah, I was just like to someone, this is how much it's going to cost for us to do photography and videography. They were just like, well, basically unfortunately, you know, we can't afford this. And I was like, great. Uh, given your proposed budget, I can only afford to give you like these kind of things. Um, and then the advantage I would say with that is with that organization, I was just like, cool. What I'll do is I'll slap on a freebie just to be like, "Hey, this is your your first time client. I get you couldn't afford it. This is something we're going to add." Um, which I didn't tell them about until the actual like sending them the edited stuff. And it was like, "No, this is great. Thank you very much." Um, so it didn't seem like that. So, you could be like, "Oh, I'm only going to edit 30 videos, do a 1 minute reel, um, and one edited interview." But then you could be like, "Actually, you know what? I'll also create, I don't know, like if you're great at Canva," or you could be like, "I'm going to create a Canva post for you." or hey, I'll create like a Tik Tok using some of the the like audio from the event that you didn't know that I recorded, but I recorded some of the speeches that took place. I'm going to create you a snapshot reel. Um cuz yeah, sometimes people will then be like, "Oh, wow. Like, this person did really great." And I know they added this for free. Um and then if they return as a client, you can be like, "Well, cool. Like, if you can increase your budget, I can include this and I can make more relationship." Exactly. 100%. Um but yeah, we're now going to go on to Treasure Talks, which is uh your your time to shine. Uh because uh you need to let us know what your treasured item is and what it means to you. Oh, so I didn't cheat. I actually bring [laughter] this intentionally. So I brought my necklaces. Um actually they're not super expensive, but I wear them all the time. They're like [snorts] made of myself starting out content and I always had these on and I think there's something about for me like just having like your own signature thing that you always hold close to you. I think just kind of looking at who I was when I first bought the neck and seeing myself now I'm like wow I've actually grown quite a bit and I think the green one was one that I'm not wearing cuz I actually lost it. But the green one I bought like a year ago when my life was so different. Like I look at myself now and I'm like wow this is so different. like such a different reality. I was in a completely different head space, different role. Everything was so different. And I think again, it's like a testament to how much I've grown cuz a year later I'm still wearing it. But here I am now. This one I actually bought like in a shopping shortage and again that day actually was a really tough day and I bought the same as I feel better. But I think I have it cuz I'm like you know what I've that day has passed now. I'm better. Like it was a tough day but it's not a tough life. Like I'm going to be okay. Yeah. So, again, I think I always buy jewelry to kind of like remind me of where I'm going. Yeah. Um, yeah. Okay. I have two questions. Which is your favorite necklace? And are you going to buy another necklace? And if you are, what would be the the next necklace that you're going to get? Ooh, that's hard. Probably my green one, I think, because of like the place I bought it where I was just I don't know. I just bought it cuz I was in a really like happier place. Um, yeah, probably that one. I think my next necklace, maybe when something really happy happens, I'll get another one. Okay. I do the same with tattoos, actually, cuz I've got a lotus on my arm, but I get tattoos when like something when I'm like in a moment of season of growth. I got a lotus flower, four years ago now. Oh, nice. Four years ago now. And I got it because the lotus flower represents like, so you know how lotus flowers, they basically grow in really murky water. M so it's kind of like a a reflection of my life. Like no matter where I've come from, I've still become something really beautiful. So I got that tattoo and I'm getting another one in like 2 months. [laughter] So I guess again same tattoos and just to kind of like remind myself of how much I've grown an owed to myself. So yeah, I really love that. That's really nice. Um do can we can we know what the new tattoo is going to be? I'm still figuring out what it's going to look like. I just have my tattoo artist. When I go there, I'll figure it out. I know I'll be back to show you guys what [laughter] it's like um to the conversation that we're having. Uh and this interesting fact is from Creative [music] Access and they found that they did a survey and found that 81% of respondents said that financial barriers, so whether this is to do with um living costs or commuting costs have stopped them from applying for new roles and 38% have said that those barriers have stopped them from accepting job offers in general. Um and the reason why I mentioned that is because we now go on to the next question about like designing confidence um and your work supports young people to build clarity and employability especially those from underrepresented backgrounds. So what are two confidence blockers that what sorry what are the two top confidence blockers that you see and what practical skills can help people overcome them? It's a really good question. Thank you very much. confidence blockers I see. Um I think a first one I would say is I think one of them is thinking that you need to have extremely fancy equipment or things to start. Another one I think is trying to fit in in spaces that don't make sense for you because I think I'll start with the second one. I think in the creative industry there's definitely a bit of a pressure I've noticed for creatives to feel like they need to have a certain aesthetic, hang around with certain people. And I think that lack of confidence in yourself and being authentic to you, I think can be a huge blocker because I think a lot of people try to squeeze themselves into boxes and spaces that aren't actually suited for them. I think a lot of creatives have a hard time accepting that you don't have to be cool to thrive in the industry. Be yourself. I think a lot of creatives want to be cool and want to be edgy and have the baggy pants and the sambers and being in um Brick Lane and but you don't have to be that to be creative. You can just be yourself. I think developing your own authentic voice, your own authentic style, even something as small as like how you edit your videos, how you talk, like how you dress, be yourself. You don't have to have like all these things to excel in the industry. I'll definitely say that. I think the first one was about like I think a lot of creatives I've noticed definitely feel like they need to have the really expensive camera to start. They need to have all this equipment, all these things and know everything to start. But I actually think it's the beauty in starting out and not knowing everything because it means you're able to learn and open to learning. But I think a lot of creatives I've met have been like, "Oh, I don't have this camera. I haven't got this equipment. I haven't got this. I haven't got And again, I think with consumerism, I think it ties into capitalism and consumerism because I think consumerism makes us feel like we have to have the latest trending thing and that we need to be up to date with what's going on and what's happening live on social media, but you don't. And I think especially with like things like content creation, I'm seeing a lot of content creators use their phones to make them thousands of pounds. So, I think with that, for example, you don't need the latest equipment. You can again build up over time. And again, back to my point around like you can build things up over time. you haven't got to have everything right now. Um, you can learn and grow as you go. That's a really big one. But I think a lot of us feel like we need to have everything right now. But there's a beauty in the growth and the journey. You will learn as you go. 100%. And I think like you said like there's um uh there's someone that I know uh her name is Lizzie and she runs a business called uh In the Element or uh it's called In the Element Studios or it studios and her whole business proposition is she creates storytelling content for brands and founders through just using her iPhone. Um so she's just like I just rock up to events. I will like come up with like a story or a narrative that we're going to tell through the content that we're capturing. And then she's basically she's like you said she's just using iPhone her iPhone. She's not like buying like I don't know like expensive cameras, new lenses, all of this. Um, and I agree with you. There's this massive misconception that as creatives you have to like have the latest like equipment, all of this. Like I tell people, we didn't start like this. We started first of all, we were doing it in the pandemic. So, everyone was doing this. This was all on Zoom. We didn't Zoom was where it was at [laughter] the free subscription before I started making it 40-minute cap. You know what was funny? So, when doing my university, I got free I got um free Zoom. So basically the uni are really nice. They really be help like wow honestly like I like this is very quick sidebar but it it makes sense in the episode. So when I was at uni um they gave I didn't know this until like everyone else was just like Zoom's got a 40-minute subscription. And I was like oh I'm still a student. I'm using Zoom and my Zoom doesn't cap out after 40 minutes. And it turned out the university paid for unlimited Zoom subscriptions for all of their students to have. Um, so we could join lectures, but then also if we were having like oneto ones with lectures or like we were having oneto ones as groups, whatever. Um, I don't know if they intentionally did that or not, but I was just like it worked 100%. So I was using it to do all the podcast recordings and all of this. So it was funny cuz sometimes the guests would be like, "Oh, my Zoom is going to kick me out." And I was like, "What do you mean it's going to kick you out?" Like I've been running this for ages. Um and then afterwards, so through uh one of the interns I met, um when we started to do more inerson recordings, um the first set of interns I had, uh she worked in our film and media course. And I didn't know this, but through that course, they get access to rent like Brunell's like camera equipment as a part of their dissertations. Um so I just emailed them and was like, "Oh, cool." Like, "Hey guys, I do this thing. like I'm not a film or media TV student, but I was just like this would be really good to like like this is what I'm doing. I'd love to do it. I was like, "Yeah, sure. Like you can rent out the equipment. You just need to bring it back by this time. There may be periods where because you're not a film and TV student, we're going to have to prioritize them over you." And I was like, "That's fine." Um, so yeah. So literally like a lot of the early times when we like using like camera setups like it was just through the university letting us use cameras for free. So, I liked that because now it helped inform my decision on like buying cameras like post uni or when we got fun. And that's the other thing I think like you mentioned there's this huge misconception that as a creative you need to like buy cameras like from the get- go and I was just like sometimes if like especially if you're running a business like wait for funding or like make enough sales that you can then be like cool. It's not always feasible 100%. like don't you there's no rush like have it and and like you said about consumerism um my sister I'm sure she won't mind me saying this uh is the person that like slaps my wrist so I'm the type of person that I'm just like this camera looks maybe we need to upgrade the setting [laughter] you know get a new camera maybe buy this buy that and I'm like oh hey what do you think about this she's just like but do you need it I was like oh yeah but I think she's like but no but do you need it um and I was like yeah no you're right you're right um so she'll sometimes just be like oh or if I do want to get it she's like cool you can get it, but then you need to basically make enough sales that you can cover buying. Exactly. So, she was just like once you've done that, like she's just like, create a pot and you know, if you got a business account or even you got a personal account, you can set up saving pots and just she was like, just do that. So, make a pot and then just be like, cool. Um, once we've made like, I don't know, let's say I want to buy a new camera, it cost £500. She was like, once you've made enough sales to cover it, then yeah, you can get the camera. But you've gone with that intention of if I want to get X, I need to do Y. Um whereas like I think with sometimes with creatives we're like so like I know there are people that are just like oh I want to get into podcasting Jeffrey like you know do I need to buy the the mics and this and I'm just like no like just if you've got your phone if you if your phone doesn't have enough storage buy a portable SD card or a hard drive. I'm just like just record it with your phone. Um and then yeah you can upgrade your settings as you go. Um, if you got a friends, like one of my a friend of mine who was doing podcasting, he literally was just using like it was him and a group of friends. They all used their phones as their cameras and then just Yeah. And they would just sometimes um cuz podcasting is expensive. Podcasting is a I've got one with my friend Dana. Um, and we I love doing it, but wow. The cost if you studio time, editing, editing software, ah expensive like wow. But again, when you love something, you're willing to put in time. But again, it takes time. We have to kind of plan this out for months before we kind of like put the money inside. No, 100%. I definitely agree. And even like that's one of the things that like um cuz a lot of people get surprised like as you can see this is not a this is not a studio. This is a meeting room but I tell people like adapt. Exactly. And like for us like when we started um like the first time to be fair like I was using this and that's another thing I would say uh find places like this this is the end of my tangent. We will go back to the question. Um, but we I say find places that you can like especi if you are and I've said this before if you are between the ages of 18 especially 18 to 25 but 18 to 30 you are unaware of the amount of opportunities there are for you as a young creative because you've got spaces so there's like roundhouse works um which is co-work space in Camden you can join there but they have uh roundhouse studios where you can book like a podcast studio for like £2 an hour like you pay £20 a year uh between the ages of I think 13 and 25. But if you're between that age group, pay 20 pound. Actually, you could if you're looking for a studio, you could use that to be fair. Let me actually take it some mental notes. Um cuz yeah, it's like uh if you're between the ages of and it's not like oh you have to be basing anyone as long as you are between the ages of 18 to 25 and your guest, if you're bringing a guest on, is between the age two, you can book into their studio for like uh £2 per hour that you use it and then you just pay a yearly subscription of £20. Um, uh, where's the other? Pirate Studios is another one. Like their podcast studio was super cheap. Uh, again, Pirate Studios is a whole thing. I won't get into that. It's a whole thing. But I would say if you just want entry level into like learning the professional, like if you're going to go to a full studio equipment, I always tell people go to these like smaller spaces that will give you the stuff at a significantly reduced rate. And even if you don't want to go into podcasting and you're just like, I'm kind of interested in it. I I've got an idea for a podcast. I'm like, just sit down. Just try. just try cuz like with this one if you're like I'm 26. All right. I say that because when I tell you that there were so many things for 25 year olds that I didn't know about that like when I hit 25 and I realized they're all gone. I was like one of them bearing in mind was also uh it's unfortunately closed which is why I can't re I apparently going to open. It's called Creators House. They're based in Kentishtown. Um they offered free podcast studios. They're closing. When I tell you I I live in North London. I live I lived in Kenttown. I had never heard of Creator's House until after it closed. I had started podcasting before it had closed. So one of my friends was just like, "Oh, if you're into podcasting, why haven't you checked out Creator's House?" I was like, "Sick, I'll check it out, man. It should be good." Um, and then I saw free, it was free for 18 to 25 year olds and then afterwards you paid like regular pricing and I was just like, "This is another one of those creative opportunities." You discover too late. Yeah. frustrating 100%. Um, but no, I definitely agree. So, my long story short, make the most of all the stuff that you can do as a creative. Even if you're just like, I'm kind of interested in the creative industries. Uh, make the most of it. Um, we've come to the last question. Um, which actually is about your podcast. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, uh, you explore culture, identity, and the things we're learning or unlearning as 20some year olds. So, how has hosting these conversations shaped the way that you lead, build community, and define success for yourself? I really like that you brought that up because I started Open Tabs with Anna um literally in February. Oh, wow. So, we actually recorded episodes like a few months ago, back like last year. We like officially launched this year. Um I think definitely it's been so integral to my growth. I think obviously if you check it out so open tabs op so no e n tabs space tabs um there's some things we do discuss that are quite non-conventional and things that a lot of people maybe are a bit scared to talk about and I think for me having the confidence to talk about that took a lot I think as somebody who grew up quite shy I didn't grow up very confident I gained confidence in my teenage early 20s years so I think for me like having the space to be my authentic self is something I really have need and I think it's really shapes me who I shaped who I am today. And I think me and Anna are really close friends. So I think it's allows us to kind of like grow our friendship even more and kind of like have that space to kind of like be authentic in ourselves. I think it's so important. Um I love it and I think we always do like our tab of the week where we kind of always like share things that we've learned kind of like in the week and it could be like an article we've read or like a documentary we've watched or a video essay. And again, [clears throat] I think it also encouraged me to like read a bit more because I was always saying how a lot of my tabs of the week were kind of like Tik Toks. And I was like, wait, why is my new source Tik Tok? Why am I getting my opinions off of Tik Tok? So, it's actually allowed me to kind of think, okay, let me actually read a bit more, read more essays, watch more documentaries to kind of actually develop more independent thought because I think social media, not to it's got many benefits. I talk a lot about the benefits for creatives, but I think social media has unfortunately caused a lot of us to not think as much. Like you're kind of relying on what somebody else thinks of course to drive your opinion on stuff. So I think taking a backseat actually reading things for yourself and actually asking yourself what do you think has really helped me. Even before I say an opinion on that, I always ask myself what am I actually saying? M um I think it's really encouraged me to kind of like actually craft and shape my own thoughts before I share things because I think that way I don't want to like spread anything that's in that's inaccurate. So I've been very conscious about if I am going to quote something quote the exact thing or if I am going to make a point. Me and Anna always are really big on like having facts or bring a statistic alongside it. So it's like actually yeah like what I'm saying has got factual kind of like backing. I'm not just saying out of my bum like I'm actually talking out of sense but I think sometimes yeah you need it's reminding me to kind of do the importance of actually researching and facteing before I say things. So yeah, you know, I love that because there are podcasts out there that are big that aren't doing that. [laughter] one day we it will be up because it is incredible that you guys like and like you said like you're just very conscious of the not only just like the platform that you have but also like the con who you're going to interact with your content and you're just like oh yeah I don't want to just be like oh cool like I've just seen this video this is then purely you know true I'm just going to say whatever this is without like actually checking into it and being like oh is what this person is saying actually based on any like true format cuz yeah I think um I mean again this this AI and misinformation could be a whole different it's scary because then even as well it's like AI taking you know even certain videos I'm like is that real like obviously sometimes we do quote things we have seen and we can say okay we [clears throat] haven't got the actual source just just by the way but I think it has encouraged me to think okay if I am going to start a platform and start a comedian audience how much of what I'm saying is true how much of what I'm saying is actually credible and I think for a lot of people if you are starting any sort of platform ask yourself what what kind of what do you stand for what actually [clears throat] is true and what are you actually feeding your audience 100% and it's true cuz even like outside of just like with podcasting it's the same with when it comes to like business pictures cuz I've seen some I'm not even talking about your we could go into Shark Tank Dragon's Den that's whole thing but I'm saying like even like the more smaller ones with accelerators where people have been like oh like quoted a stat or they've been like oh this is my target like this audience is impacted in this way and then they were told like is this true like they were just like yeah and they were just like actually and it's worse Cuz my thing like when you're going to reference uh you know put up a stat on a slide or like in a talk or whatever um be aware that whoever you're talking to may be in that industry. Uh and I know what they're talking about and they know what they're talking about. And I know that there was one uh there was a pitch that um I heard about that the person basically was just like oh um they basically were quot So I will I'll preface back I won't go into the full story um on camera at least but um the person basically was just like oh they wanted to spend funding on a specific thing because um they just basically felt like this was where like the money would be best used and they basically gave a quote and said like there's not a lot of um of the thing that they wanted to get. there isn't a lot of like of that in the industry and they were just like I just want to use the money to basically invest in this because it just makes the most sense and one of the people on the panel was just like I don't think that's true like I know people in the industry I can name like three or four of these people and then it became super awkward because then the person was just like no like was doubling down and then it the person was just like I guess everyone in the room was just like oh no this feels kind of like weird um and it just instantly shifts so I guess all in all I'm trying to say as well like no if you're going to say something be able to back it up and be like where it's from. Um so like one of the stats that um through like my part-time job, one of the stats that I love when we talk about like why uh our program exists to support like black founders is because he uses I don't and again it's funny I'm sitting now saying I don't know where this quote is from. Um but there's this quote that basically says that like black founders I think get venture like the black founders that get venture capital funding in the UK is like 0.2%. And then when it looks Yeah. And it gets worse for like black female founders. I think it's like 0.02%. Wow. Um but he uses that quote and when I asked him about like he um he actually funny enough was on this podcast and I asked him about it and I was like he's like yeah you know you need to like be aware that like you can't just be saying things and not a have the quotes to back it up or b know where these quotes are from. [snorts] Um because he said like people ask you like you can't be like oh I saw a report that said like Gen Z are struggling with X. You're just like who said it? When did that report come out? Um so yeah. Yeah. So, it's almost like really fact like you said like factecking where your information is coming from and be incredible 100%. Um, yeah, we now come to passing the mic which uh we won't again I always joke we're not physically passing the mic but we swap roles so you get to ask me a question or a series of questions. Um, over to you. Um, I'd like to ask you what is something you've enjoyed most about having this conversation like today? Yeah. I've never been asked specifically about the conversation I've had. Like is there a point that either of us made that you really kind of want to take away and explore further because you've heard about every discussion? This was really good. Oh, that is a really good question. I would say [clears throat] I've got I got to sit with that for a minute. Um [laughter] I would say one key thing that I probably will take away and think about is definitely the I think there's two. I think it's like the power of authentic community and really like being intentional with it because I think there is like you said about like numbers. So I think sometimes people get lost in the stats or if they're trying to get money or funding or sponsorship they're just like I need to prove there's a big audience is this is that and I think like being able to say actually know I've got an authentic audience. So, like you said, I might not necessarily have like 100 or a thousand people coming to every event that I host, but if I know that there's like a good solid core 20 to 30 people that if I dropped an event that's happening like in two weeks time, they will be there because they're like, oh, I love the community you built. I want to be a part of it and all of that. I'm like, that's great. That makes me a happy person. Um, and I think the second thing, uh, which is kind of like what we talk about, which I am am working on, and maybe probably not by the I don't know when this next episode is going to be recorded. So, let me not try and force myself to have it ready for the next one. But, um I think like you said like pricing cuz I think that was one of the things that especially through that accelerator with the like we're going to be doing a new service um through pick up the mic and I was just like let me do research to be able to figure out like how much we charge and all of this. And I think like you said there as a creative it's really about knowing your pricing and like why you're charging that much and then also having the like confidence to back it up because like you said I think especially when it comes to big brands um sometimes you'll just be like oh unfortunately I'm I'm like like you said like if Apple reach out you may be like oh well I'll take less money but I've got the big name of Apple but uh again talking about pictures I went to a pitch where someone worked with like a big ass institution and then the people just like oh my days like you worked with this arts institution like they must have paid you loads and they were just like oh no they paid me like this much and they were just like that's like I'm I'm sorry like they was like you should have charged so much more because what you're doing is bringing them a new audience that they actually haven't really like they don't get engagement for and they were just like you don't understand how powerful you are like as a negotiator you are and you shouldn't feel like just because they're like even if there was ultimately even if you lost them as someone that you've worked with yeah it might be difficult or maybe you might be upset but like you can still ultimately say like you like you can use that as a reference point and be like well hey you know um for the next ass institution we actually were going to work with so and so but you know if you are more flexible with your budgets we can do this or even if you're just like hey we will take a shorter cut but then that then means we need to lock into doing like three events with you throughout the whole year or you know negotiate exactly and I think actually to be fair I'd say if I I like doing things in threes if I had to say a third thing it would be the no um I would say negotiation is a powerful thing cuz I think sometimes we're just like it has to be a yes or a no. Um, and I would say not even just like with a business, if you're a creative, and this is something I've had to recently do, is like if you're going into like a job and you're just like, "Oh, cool." Like, they're just like, "This is a salary." And you're like, "Oh, well, based on what's in the job description," or if you're, you know, hired as a freelancer, based on what you're being asked to do, that's like way below what you should be being like paid for. Um, you can have the confidence to just be like, "Actually, you know what? I'm not going to like could you adjust the pay?" Because if you really think about it, if you look at all these like stats and stuff, it actually showcases that I'll be actually taking on a lot. And I think there is power into that to just be able to turn around and be like, "Hey, you know what? Like I really appreciate all the stuff you're doing, but I can't like I cannot accept this because this isn't okay." Um, and I know like there was a job that actually I um it was funny enough the job that I probably would have taken because I had applied for that job first before getting this one. Um, and I had to step away cuz in the contract it was just like they would own the IP of anything I did similar to my job role and because I was doing podcast what? Yeah. They would take so in the contract it basically said if I did anything that was re like so my it was basically like a trainee podcasting role and they said anything I did outside of work that was like linked to my day job would be taken like basically they would own the intellectual property of and I was like oh well I was like and that's why sorry it's really important to have things in writing also read contracts cuz a lot of creatives don't have things in writing things are very informally agreed and then when there's problems you've got nothing to kind of like fall back on. But in your case as well, so if you are getting contracts from like these really big brands, read it and actually read the terms to kind of know okay what is actually what are the stipulations because again a lot of these big brands will try and like swindle you stuff like that and then you may not realize that down the line you've actually been like in a problem where you've signed the the contract now you can't turn back. No, that's good that you read that and you paid attention to that. You should have accepted that and been like, "Oh, yeah." But no, no 100%. Cuz And I'd literally told them and they knew in the interview. I was like, "Look, so I'm doing Pick Up the Mic." And I even explained to them. I was like, "Look, we're not actually registered as a company at this time. Like we've been just doing this as like a kind of like side hustle, like fun thing." And they were just, "Oh, no, it's cool. Like it's in everyone's contract. This is that." And I was just like, this is kind of raising alarm bells. And I was like, so I spoke to my like entrepreneur team and they were like, "Obviously we're not lawyers, but like based on what you've like we've seen, like this sounds dodgy. we wouldn't go with it. Um, again, obviously legal fees is expensive, but if you have a friend that does law, they're not necessarily a lawyer, but they will know a bit of stuff. Uh, so I spoke to someone who was helping me out with pick up the mic, and I was like, look, like this is in my contract. I know you're not a lawyer, but you've studied law. Like, what do you think about this? And she's just like, yeah, if you sign this, you are basically giving up control over pick up the mic. Um, that's crazy. Yeah. And I asked him, I was like, look, could you remove this from my contract? Like, I don't want to give up the IP. This is something that is important to me. I want to build I want to build something with this. And they were just like, "No, unfortunately we can't. It's something that's like stipulated in all stars contracts." And I was like, "Well, if you're not going to remove it, I'm not going to sign it. I can't take this job." And it's been great. Like, I appreciate you offering it to me, but like I'm not going to risk my business and something that I want to actually turn into something I'm doing full-time just for like And also, I think the other thing I was just like, it's a role for a year. So, I wasn't even going to be there for that long to then sign a So, like if it was something that was paying loads or like it was a big opportunity that came over it or even if it was like guaranteed employment like for long periods of time, I would have been like, "Sure." But I was just like, "It's a trainy role in podcasting. I already have a bit of podcasting experience anyways." Um, and I was like, "Yeah, to just give up IP on something that I enjoy outside of work. It's not worth it. It's not worth it." 100%. Um, but yeah. Do you have any other questions you would like to ask? I do. Another question is, what do you think your younger self would make of you today? What you're doing now? Uh, good question. Um, I again I got to sit with this question as well. Um, I think I think my younger self would en would be happy with what I do. I think you'd be surprised because I I've basically have like pivoted the longest um with everything I've wanted like with my whole career. So the science part I did but but even that like changed sign. So initially this is also why like if you're like like a comic book fan or like nerdy like this is also why you need to be aware of the stuff. So initially I was like oh I want to go into um was it like bio yeah I was initially like I want to go into bioengineering and then basically so I did my GCSEs I was doing like the triple science and uh I did drama and history I was like cool I'll go down that route. Um like you said before about like being creative like if I told my parents I was going into acting that's a definite no. Um [laughter] so I was like and but I did do drama like for GC season. did school plays cuz I enjoyed it. Um but yeah, I was just like cool, I'm going to go into bioeng engineering. Then I realized basically I absolutely hate maths. Um you need that to Yeah. engineering part. Yeah. So then I was like oh cool I for A levels I did again the wildest combination of so for so when I did A levels you still had AS and A levels. So I did history, drama, physics and maths cuz Yeah. So very random. And then what a remix. I dropped maths after year 12 because math was never again. Um, so I did physics, history, and math. Now, those three are all subjects I was passionate. I didn't I'll also be honest, I didn't do subjects that I was like, oh, there's a career path in mind. I was like, I'm only going to study stuff I'm actually interested in doing. Exactly. Um, so I was like, cool, I'll do those three. And then, um, I was, yeah, really thinking about what am I going to do at uni? And then my physics teacher was just like, "Oh, like if you enjoy sustainability," which I did, he was like, "Why don't you look and go into like environmental sciences?" He was like, "It's an open-ended like career. There's a lot of things." So, he was just like, "It's a career where you may like you don't have to be in the lab. Like, you could do like you could do community work with that. You could do policy work. You could work in a lab. You could do like community consulting like all of this stuff." So, he was just like, "Why don't you try that?" So, I did that and I did environmental science for my undergrad. Uh again I I was like cool maybe I'll be an environmental scientist. Hated the lab. The lab was the worst. Uh for my dissertation I only decided to do research because I was like I will never be in the lab again. Um and then for my masters I did sustainability, entrepreneurship and design and the yeah which again random masters but um the combination of those three I liked because it was like three different subjects but it has a merging like there's a link between all three of them. Um but also I was just like okay so I know at least maybe like five different businesses that did that masters from my uni who went on to set up like big successful uh like companies and I was like cool there must be like at least a ground level of understanding that they'll be taught here that I could engage with and I can learn and develop from. So I was like cool let's just do that. Um and then yeah when I like left so when I so for my masters and undergrad I did placement years because again I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was like it's an extra year of uni that should be fine. Um but then yeah I did uh so I the first for my undergrad placement year I did uh STEM outreach. So I'd go to schools and work with young people to encourage them to get into STEM which was quite fun. Um, and it yeah, it was really cool because we worked with like young like reception to like year 13 and then you'd see like even like for like I'm talking about like year one or two could be like could understand stuff and do stuff quickly that like they honestly they're year n like some of these year two students like we we had like activities they do quick and then like we get in year nines we were doing it and they'd be like ah I don't know what to do. But you're seeing like people in they're not they don't they're not they're not fearless. That's why they are fearless. have any sort of idea of like failure out there that and they're just like oh I want to just like I'll do anything like you're just like figure this out they're just like cool sick like I'm just going to do it I don't really need like we were just like oh maybe do you need a hand do you need like some most of them now I'm good like just let me run um and then for my masters I did I was working in basically helping undergrad students find placements um so I think from like essentially all of that to say I think uh my younger self would enjoy my variety of career because now I've ended in the creative industries. I now do pick up the mic. Um, and I enjoy it. I still obviously have like my science background as well. Um, but for me, I just like the fact that like I am not limited to my degree, whereas with other or like I'm not limited to like my career path, whereas other degrees or like um certain professions may mean that you can only like go into certain areas. I like that like I could leave like I could leave my job today and then go into finance or tech if I wanted to or I could leave my job today Exactly. Um, and I like the fact that like even like I was thinking about recently, I was just like, so I've worked in higher education, I've worked in essentially like student outreach, I've worked in supporting young people, I did like three month I did an internship um like with the government working in environmental policy. So I' like I've worked across like three different areas and I was just like, yeah, that's actually quite nice to be able to reflect on and think. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. I like that. And I think as well it's cool because even though you may not be working directly in science right now, there's so much that you can learn and gain from science like organization, even things like research skills or hypothesis testing, like managing numbers, predictability, like there's so much that you can kind of carry with you into creative or whatever you outside of that. So pretty cool. I really appreciate that. Any other questions? Um, no, that's it really. I think those two things I was really keen to hear about. Thank you for answering them. You're very welcome. Um we are going to go on to NC of the month which is an organizational individual who's doing incredible work linked to what we have been talking about today and uh once my there we go it has loaded uh but it has now crashed so give me one minute. Our organization for today is uh the people who gave us the stats creative access. So uh the UK's leading inclusivity organization in the creative industries they build practical programs that open career access and help underrepresented talent thrive. So, if you're interested in checking them out, please do check out their website. Uh there's a whole list of programs you can find out about that may be relevant to you and help you to boost your creative careers if you're interested in the creative industries. Even if you're just um interested in seeing what the creative industries is, uh because I think I mentioned it before, but I actually don't know where this picture is. So, if I find it, it magically will appear on the screen and if not, um you'll have to look for it yourselves. But essentially uh there's this whole there's this mass incredible diagram about like what actually the creative industries are is cuz people think it's only like writing or film and TV. Um but they were just like no you've got creative tech, you've got creative agencies, you've got um video games, you've got like I mentioned like writing, acting, um you have podcasting was on there as well and it was like yeah there's actually like loads of industries layers to it. Exactly. And I think like you said about um the like you're saying about like the sciences like there are skills that you can learn even if you're not necessarily like you didn't study a creative degree. There are skills from your other degrees that you like from your academic background that you can bring into the creative industry. So like you said like um everyone needs like you're going to need to know money. So if you've done finance I'm telling you your creatives creatives need help. There there's an organization called Wolsman Creative who I met um and they basically focus on doing finance like they're accountants for creatives. So yes, and literally the founder was just like, "Oh yeah, the whole point of it existing was because I realized that creatives don't really understand like cash flows and profit and loss statements and all of this stuff." And she was just like, "Oh, well, why don't I just create this thing where specifically for creatives, I will help them to figure out all of their finances and their financial things that they need to be aware of." Um, and I was like, "Yeah, that's great." Because technically, yes, she doesn't operate directly in the creative industries, but through her knowledge in accounting, she's been able to be able to do that. You know, there's law firms that do stuff around creatives, uh, and like contracts, IP, trademark, all of this stuff. Um, trying to think of another degree. Uh, I mean, technically, design is a creative degree. There's loads of other degrees you could use. You can research and check. Um, but I would say check out Creative Access. Uh, they do incredible work. Um, we come to the second last segment before we wrap up. Um, and Sophie, we've had an incredible conversation and it's funny you asked me what I'm taking away from this conversation because this is where I now ask you to do our takeaway segment. So, we talked about a lot. What is one message you would like our audience to go home with? There's so many things to talk about. [music] [music] So, I'm trying to actually because like so much what I've created built as a power I've had to [music] adapt all the time. I think I've learned the value of reading like you know what this didn't work okay like see it as research and I think there have been so many ideas but the I would know that because my mind I think it's changing a Okay. [music] Um, we've now come to the end of the episode. So, thank you very much, Sophie. It's been incredible hearing what you're doing. Uh, it's been incredible learning so much about yourself. We enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Thank you. Um, this is your moment to plug [music] yourself. So, uh, how can people connect? How can people connect with, uh, collab? Uh, do you have any I'll be honest, [music] this episode, I need to figure out when it will come out. But if you have anything, let's say for the next two to 3 months, [music] this is your opportunity to share it. Um, yeah, this is anything and everything. This is this is your time to let everyone know. Okay. Well, um, the collab network first of all is @ collab network with a K on Instagram, Tik Tok, and LinkedIn. Um, we will be launching a program really soon. We've got some fun things. We're going to be launching that really, really soon. Um, just in the kind of final seasoning up for some few things. Um, [music] and you can find me on Instagram, Sophia Renee. Um, and Open Tabs, which is open E on Instagram, Spotify, Apple Podcast, and YouTube. Perfect. Great. Well, thank you. And thank you to our wonderful audience for coming back. If you like this episode, like, comment, subscribe is always appreciated. If you want to make sure you don't miss any episodes of the student guide or anything else on the Pick up the mic YouTube channel, hit the notification bell at the bottom of the video. Uh if you're watching on Spotify, I completely forget to add this all the time, but you know, five star five star rating goes fast. So, thank you very much. Uh if you want to receive uh discounts on [music] our events, get some cool merch at discounted rate too, uh get episodes early and more, please check out either our YouTube channel membership, our Patreon page, or our buy us a coffee page where across all of these three platforms. Uh you don't have to if you want to subscribe to all three, thanks. Uh but you can just pick one. Uh and you can subscribe for the price of a coffee per month to one of those platforms. Uh [music] and that will essentially help us with our endeavors that we do. uh and incredible stuff that we've got in the works. If you want to check out our other YouTube channels, so that is sensei of anime for your for all our anime fans. That is pick up the controller for our gaming fans and [music] the two maesters for our sci-fi, fantasy, comic book, and all things nerdy fans. Um you can check out those three. If you head down from the four, if you go to the home page for pick up Mike's YouTube channel, scroll down, you'll see under the for you, there's all three listed there. Uh subscribe, hit the notification bells on them, and then you won't miss any content on those channels, too. [music] And then uh two final things. Uh first off um I don't know if I mentioned it in the last podcast. I may have, I may not, but uh I am able to say it now publicly. Uh we are celebrating 5 years of the business. Uh thank you very much. Uh and we are celebrating in person. Um at Summers House. So we are collaborating with Summers House again. [laughter] You got higher and higher. No, this is good. This is good. Thank you very much. Um so yeah, so we we have a incredible community event planned. Um we have incredible things that are coming um for it. It'll be a wonderful evening. You'll get to I'll send you the link. I'd love to have you there as well. Um so yeah, uh it's open to everyone. Uh it's completely free. Uh there will be food and drink. Thank you. Yes. But please do make sure you're there cuz actually uh actually I've just realized I can't announce the last thing I was going to say. I cannot announce because [music] it is going to be announced at the event. So if you want to hear what this final section of the podcast was going to be, um come along 4th of June 6 to 10 Somerset House. Uh we'll put the link in the show notes in the description below, but we'd love to have you there. Um cuz yeah, we will be celebrating 5 years and talking about what the future of Pick Up the Mic is looking. But what I can tell you now is it's looking good. So if you want to make sure that you find out, come along on to the event. Um yeah, we're going to close this chapter of the student guide. It's been [music] great. Uh it's been great talking to you, Sophie. Um and yeah, keep an eye out for the next episode. So we'll see you all shortly. Uh and have a wonderful day. Bye.